a lot of welcome to sophie and co means sophie shevardnadze now as international diplomatic crisis over n.s.a. surveillance is gaining in scale the u.s. is scrambling to justify its actions and while we're waiting to learn what exactly obama wanted to hear in angola merkel's conversations the question remains will the west manage to roll back the mass surveillance or will it submit to the reality of this one particular big brother presence. when i was spying on friends and trust has been undermined what can stop the relationship from crumbling when europe forgive the u.s.

for sneaking in snooping or will they hang up on the curious. how much longer will snowden's revelations keep the flames of the route and our guest today is to british labor i mean. well it's a really interesting visit and to be honest we didn't expect one hundred percent we went to washington the whole nature of investigating the story of massive valence of spying meant that we were very realistic we didn't expect to get you know the definitive answers about what was going on but we did get some very high level meetings we got face to face meetings with the n.s.a. we went to the white toast and so on you know we had to every major department and we got to build up a picture in one of those build ups if you like was to try and get our concerns across the first thing was. to get the concerns across and they were first of all

that these allegations are really amassing there are allegations which are taken very seriously in the european union first of must surveillance of you citizens then of course the spying allegations but osu issues of commercial sensitivity you know all of the issues about google and yahoo and all of these. excess issues so we got those across and then we try to get some answers on capitol hill and so on but it be wrong to see that we got definitive answers back because it's a voluntary process we're trying to make some progress but clark did you have did you did you come back with anything at all what are you reporting back to europe because you couldn't you couldn't get your point of view across to america without going to america thank you could say we're outraged by you spying on us but are you actually reporting back to europe with something. what you've got to remember and i mean every journalist is us this you know why go to america when they come here

look we're having hearings in brussels and strasburg we're european parliament we have representation rule for twenty seven countries we have had dozens of hearings in brussels in strasburg many americans have come to see as including whistleblowers by the way we've just learned ruddock who gave a statement from edward snowden for example so we've had many americans give us evidence there but it would be wrong not to have at least one visit to washington where people who were not able to give evidence gave evidence where we could interact with some people who had not come to brussels so we did and it was only for two or three days that was imports and it was important to get a sense of our concerns to them and that was also a two way street now what you know what most journalists have said well yeah but did the u.s. officials sadly spent you think did they try to justify the n.s.a.'s activities or

was it just that one way monologue from here outside oh yes they did try and justify what they were doing in fact we had private meetings with the n.s.a. homeland security department national security council and there was some justification given in fact you would have seen that. we had we had private meetings and then you saw a public statement coming out while we were there for the national security agency is explicitly of its massive valence activity and you saw that coming from the n.s.c. and capitol hill while we were there and the justification given was public it was about this was done on the basis of you know the necessity of i.g. terror activity it was done in partnership with the government so they were they were in fact while we were there starting to rebut many of the allegations and that was unusual because my point. to many of the fissures that we saw was

this that it is take it a long time for the cia and others to come back on these allegations there's been a lot of silence and that was one of my points to them so there were some reports happening while we were there. ok here is what you have set recently spined has always existed but friend on friend spying is not something that is easily toral america was spying on friends and it couldn't possibly be terrorism ok and there are speculations of purely economic reasons behind the spying have you learned the purpose of the spying or is it just official lines that they've given us all along . oh no we haven't learned the food truth of this have to be open about that we haven't learned the quotes that you just gave back to me particularly german example for example the allegations of chancellor merkel i can speak for my

colleagues who were there with my german parliament tyrian colleagues from all sorts of political parties in the european parliament who feel that you know what would be the purpose of espionage or you know chancellor merkel i mean you know is that for security purposes is there any necessity for it is there is it proportionate and i think the view of my colleagues and i on the parliament delegation you know i would say the majority of people in the european union but i think. well that's the point about these allegations that if the disproportion if the if there is no perceived reason for must surveillance and that allegation of us of violence is proven. a process of trying to figure out what is going on if that's the case then you go to get to a point of commercial to fifteen what i. is you've got further allegations of

massive valence of data be taken from citizens there are two points here what is the specific allegations in relation to companies this issue of back during trips in and so on this is a second problem a breakdown of trust which effects the movement of that could have commercial implications so there are two issues here if you have a breakdown of trust between the e.u. and us on this set of allegations we've said this to our codes are parts of me no this is this is an issue. between the e.u. and us if you have this bridge of trust and you don't repair it that there are commercial implications but can't sell you something from what i'm hearing right now it looks like it really was more of a symbolic visit rather than anything else just like europe's reaction to a spine case of this proportion. well i mean it doesn't disturb me

that you think. feelings are not hurt if you feel it's symbolic that's up to you what i thought it was was a very high level visit we got some information a realistic expectations were met and we were realistic like tell you why we were realistic because parliaments are not perfect democracy is are not perfect we don't have subpoena powers for not a court of law we can't force people to tell us something they don't want to tell us but it democracies and parliaments you try you try and get the truth you try and speak to counterparts these are our allies so we're there we're asking the questions we're asking tough questions and we're doing that in brussels in strasburg as well because at the end of the day we know we're legislators we're not perfect but we're there to address what we think the citizens are concerned about they are definitely in our view concerned that mass data transfer. of happened because of these allegations if these allegations are made there is

a privacy issue there's a human rights issue but there's also a commercial issue yeah i mean tough questions are great but i really wonder about the answers and he said he hadn't gotten any tangible answers like that generally wonder why would they be spying on and am i look i mean yeah yeah it's really interesting you keep asking this and that's fine but you know this is not our reporting situation. it's a parliamentary inquiry no what i think is happening here it's a process i think with the media with good journalism with a geos with legislators there is pressure here genuine pressure building up this is part of a process people are watching this process companies businesses who don't want to see you know intrusion breaking down you know back doors into people's musty affected business privacy being you know something that is an afterthought why

because in the future if we could have commercial transactions you don't want to see this being broken down super human rights reasons and for commercial reasons people want to see this issue resolved in some way and i think that's why this process probably in the end. will it will take time but i think it will come through but it will be a painful and long process i don't think it's going to be a process but let's talk about the process a bit you know right after merkel's reaction the spanish government has warned of a potential breakdown of trust with the u.s. well ok but so what now it's not like they're cutting diplomatic ties what exactly does that mean the breakdown of trust. what's happening here is you've got major governments you've got the spanish government where we were there men do. have a piece on. the. the allegations of spanish citizens having mass surveillance

germany the french situation i mean what's happening here is these allegations are coming thick and fast and we understand there will be more allegations and eve got here sort of relentless situation of allegations and the key point here is that many of these allegations are not having an answer now the situation is that as we understand it is that because it's intelligence issues. we understand that we've been told that we have a call beds coming from the n.s.c. but while we were there there were some reports all those now we're in a situation where as a parliamentary inquiry and indeed there are many national inquiries as well who are not the only one. we want to get as much information as possible at the end of our inquiry you know we're not completely forensic inquiry but we'll take the information we can get a mix of assumptions and make some recommendations but we think that at the end of

the day those countries germany france spain you mentioned those countries will have their intelligence services they will remain solvent you know they do what they want to do but the citizens will still ask the question you know what it what it what it is like government do to safeguard my privacy i think that's the question we will have to be able to answer to those citizens and companies and commercial outfits will want to say look it's a trip in safe or are we going to be doing our business in this kind of environment and i think those two questions are what we're interested in but after the break when your behavior takes a please the arab states and can we transfer money and its activities it will be rolled back stating mom.

wealthy british style it's time to explain. the. markets why not scandals. find out what's really happening to the global economy in cars a report on our. language of oil but i will only react to situations i have read the reports so let me put it to the no i will leave that to the state department to comment on your latter point i completely say that it is or k.l.a. car is on the docket. no more weasel words when you made a direct question be prepared for a change when you throw

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a little torch relay. on our. welcome back to the show we're talking to british labor i mean claude we're a s. who just returned from washington talks on and say to so the u.k. government communications had quarters was key in helping the n.s.a. performance surveillance have they given you or anyone their explanations. no we haven't had. any explanation we just invite them to the inquiry they didn't come. but i mean do you find it weird that they're not giving you an explanation as they're pretending as if nothing is going on because they're really where a key in the whole operation. though is we've invited intelligence national

intelligence services from most of the member states and there's no actually attended i mean this is this is an interesting point because. when you inquire into intelligence services and you the european parliament and the european union of major intelligence services we've got something called which is a very small intelligence operation but it's nothing like a national intelligence service like you have in russia or u.k. has or france has. because of we just don't have the power and authority to get those intelligence services here we have a thing called loyal cooperation the new it's a voluntary situation and as a result none of the intelligence services including d.c. h.q. have actually come along turn quiet because just recently david cameron lashed out at the guardian for being irresponsible for publishing more leaks but you know people are wondering shouldn't he be offering his apologists instead of lashing out

at the press but i mean he's entitled to his view i mean he's the prime minister and he's entitled to his view in the u.k. different politicians have given their view because his view is that he feels the guardian have gone too far and he stated his view but what is your view because you're a politician as well how valid is his veiled threat towards to here the guardian in particular. i mean my view my view is that he is entitled to give a view on the guardian that's my view. and he's entitled to he ought to be giving interviews prime minister my view about the guardian is i think what the guardian has done is reported responsibly try to in my view take you know a huge set of allegations i feel having interviewed them in the inquiry they were one of the first the editors one of the first it's of us at our inquiry we had speed many journalists in my view and i've got the last word on it but i

feel that they have redacted a lot of information attempted to produce good journalism for example they have just put the allegations outs on a website or whatever they've tried to to shape the story so that people have not been put in danger that's my understanding clear understanding and if that's the case that i think you know the guardian of responsibly reports that this so you think the guardian should have publish notice revelations that should continue to do so in the future. here i mean i'm giving you my view about the guardian not just given you my view which is that i think that the guardian is a responsible nice paper and in the inquiry we interviewed the editor we put to him very clearly what do you you know what's your purpose what's your methods and it was very clear that they had made a lot of efforts to redacted from ation that people in difficulty know there are

different views of that you know some people are very strong views of the guardian you know we actually interviewed them in the inquiry and we took the view that. good journalism was a plea here and a very difficult situation so that's my view but the guardian now david cameron himself has not been spied on and we're all at least that's what he's been told and still he signed. it up for a statement from all twenty eight evil leaders calling for the rebuilding of trust the united states but isn't he an accomplice in this case and should also be responding now for his actions. i don't know what you mean by to submit i think the statement to rebuild trust united states is correct i think that's exactly what we're doing in the inquiry as well because united states is our ally i think most e.u. countries would agree with but i think the idea here is that trust is being. affected by the situation i don't think there's any total i mean it's

a factual case that we are allies. to the u.p.d. this currently. us trade agreement you can probably at the moment i mean i was involved in a negotiation negotiating the swift terror deal directly under the lisbon treaty with the united states so we have. partnerships we don't see the point is that it's a trust situation well i'll tell you what i mean because after all i may not know it all i'm just a journalist they cia was paying g c h q hundreds of millions of dollars to have them spy for them is that normal practice for a governmental agency to receive money from a foreign state. even if it's an ally sure that's what our parliament should cory's trying to look our problem is not just looking at. the poor issue our part of it looking about but it's looking at all the intelligence services in the e.u.

in fact our remit is to luke oversight issues because we are far from perfect we have issues about our own intelligence services oversight in fact when we were in the us we made that very clear to our counterparts in the us we said that we have oversight issues that are owed back yards so. we were very clear about that so that's part of our inquiry remit so what do you think snowden now has another powerful enemy the u.k. for lending them in hot waters i mean i mean if you're asking me about what. mr student. you know he. i'm a legislator i just i mean. this is that it is integration that's being talked about in every major news channel for the past couple of months so this is all interrelated so we're just not. sure. yes exactly i mean you do as well as i

would to mean you're not just a journalist you have a good idea but this is i do i mean. of course i mean he's you know he's a very tough position i mean he's a whistle blower. you know and by the way in the inquiry we interviewed a number of key whistleblowers and in fact we had a statement from him through just that route to he was his attorney and so you know we have been parted it's been pretty extensive. so just recently president obama has pledged to review the n.s.a. activities what does it mean to you because for some it just means being more cautious to avoid more leaks. here i mean we met with various acts in the united states who are doing this terrible review and i think when anything happens on this scale anywhere there were this could be internal reviews and we you know we're doing our job we met with various actors in the u.s.

that are doing this internal review and we made it very clear today you know these are the concerns we have within the european union that when they do their review the really understand what is happening to citizens of the e.u. and in other parts of the world to in terms of their concerns that certain actions alleged actions that are happening are having an impact on the e.u. so we made that very clear so we know about the internal reviews that are going on ordered by the president so that's what we we were very clear about that would we spoke to the various actors that are doing the internal review. yeah also another interesting fact recently last summer was a luxembourg prime minister's resignation for not being able to keep a security check do you think we could see more stories like that break out in europe. i think us an interesting point you me because i think there was

a time when. the super spy stories stories were really quite rare they did really. after the cold war the speed this big where you just didn't get any you would never get a resignation you would never really hear about this i think we're in a different phase of accountability i think citizens certainly i can speak of the european union citizens want accountability the warrants legislators in this case the case is a good one you bring up they just what accountability what people for what they're doing and secrecy and espionage the understand is necessary to protect their security salute the but the wants of balance they want to know that this is not being done for the wrong reasons and they want some level of accountability so this is quite interesting the point you make that. there will be probably more of these

types of situations where politicians are brought to be more accountable for what's happening in terms of security secret services and so on and also really shortly what countries will definitely want to protect their information until they trust is rebuild what never in and whatever form it will happen we don't know that right but what do you think will happen before that like will people start using a cryptic communications lines go back to typewriters because some foreign ministers are actually going to that practice going back to typewriters. yeah i mean you know that's such a brilliant point to make not i've not heard any journalist speak up in all the time i've done this inquiry it's such a good point because one of the big problems here is that is that what during the inquiry actually heard from experts that. is that it's easier to break into highly

encrypted services encrypted actually helps sometimes to break and so you know just going back to basics might be easier for some people and i've actually learned so much doing this inquiry and i think i think this is why we need to get to the truth because what you're dealing with here is that you know in a few years to tell you where there are children who will just be doing commerce on the internet on electronic media that that's the future if you don't if you don't have a safe environment to do that. you're going to face big problems so this is not just a privacy a human rights issue this is a commercial issue and people are going to want to answers because they're suddenly going to find that these allegations need some answers because they want a more stable environment for electronic communication fight club thank you very much so folks it's a good thing day for today's program. is stick to the basics that support today and

guess what cutlery and british labor n.e.p. and they had a good european delegation to washington his objective was to clear out n.s.a. spying over the e.u. nations thanks for watching we'll see you in the next edition of so being. alliances advances and reversals outside military interventions in stalemate these are among some of the descriptions that apply to the middle east since the start of the arab spring what are we experiencing in this church region the end of the western neocolonial border or merely instability and violence with no end in sight . the deepest lake in the world. usually they're no more than

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